Posted on May 13, 2014, 12:55 am, F spotting M (Dorm). 29 comments.
I saw you... guy complaining about how you think girls can cry rape "just because" they had any alcohol. a) One can't give consent if they are impaired. Yes, this means that one can give consent if they have been drinking but IFF they are not impaired. b) If you're complaining about someone not giving consent and blaming it on alcohol, they probably didn't give consent...
Posted at May 15, 2014, 1:22 am by M
How can you prove someone is drunk? In any case, you could just try to get them to say yes.
Posted at May 15, 2014, 4:44 pm by M
If a drunk driver is responsible for his actions because he made the conscious choice to impair himself, why are women excused from responsibility when they choose to impair themselves as well? Additionally, if both parties are impaired, why is the male not equally absolved of responsibility?
Posted at May 15, 2014, 7:26 pm by F
She wants the Baker D.
Posted at May 15, 2014, 11:13 pm by F
can't give ____ if they are impaired.
Posted at May 15, 2014, 11:14 pm by F
If you're complaining about someone not giving ____ and blaming it on alcohol, they probably didn't give ____
Posted at May 15, 2014, 11:14 pm by F
blaming ____ on alcohol
Posted at May 15, 2014, 11:25 pm by F
2, you are stupid. So stupid.
Posted at May 15, 2014, 11:36 pm by F
2, The drunk driver CHOSE to drive. The victim NEVER CHOOSES to be raped - hence RAPE.
I've included the definition of rape as defined by the Oxford Dictionary below. **The emphases are my own.
rape - NOUN - the crime of FORCING another person to have sexual intercourse with the offender AGAINST THEIR WILL.
Posted at May 16, 2014, 12:02 am by F
@2
> If a drunk driver is responsible for his actions because he made the conscious choice to impair himself, why are women excused from responsibility when they choose to impair themselves as well?
In the case of a drunk driver, the driver is committing a crime. Alcohol is no excuse for that crime. In the case of rape, the raped individual is not the perpetrator, but the victim. The level of intoxication of the individual does not lessen their status as a victim.
> Additionally, if both parties are impaired, why is the male not equally absolved of responsibility?
In this context, impaired means such a state of intoxication that one is incapable of giving consent. To be specific, one is incapable of saying "no" because one isn't capable of properly conveying it. If someone who is intoxicated is initiating the sexual encounter, then they are consenting to the encounter up until any change in their behavior that would indicate otherwise.
If you're still confused, let's simplify the situation a bit. One can either actively approve a sexual encounter, actively reject a sexual encounter, or inactively give no indication of the state of their consent. When someone is impaired during an encounter, if they give no indication of the status of their consent, then they cannot be assumed to approve it. This applies just as well when someone isn't impaired, but it's less common of a situation.
If someone actively and willfully approves the sexual encounter, then they are giving consent. Their decision to approve may have been different had they not been intoxicated, but that doesn't invalidate their approval at the time. If it did, then the same could be said of any decision made by an impaired individual. Imagine a drunkard purchasing a product/service that they ordinarily wouldn't purchase, and then demanding restitution once they've become sober. You could outlaw the sale of such to the impaired, but that would reciprocally reduce their freedom.
Also, lets please talk about this issue in gender-neutral terms. I've known guys who were raped by women they didn't like when they were impaired, but they're too ashamed to even admit the possibility that they were taken advantage of because it would damage their masculinity.
Posted at May 16, 2014, 3:21 am by M
@9 Your point about giving consent while consented, I agree with it. However, I know plenty of people who don't, who claim that they are absolved from any responsibility because they are drunk, and therefore their consent given while drunk was not actually consent. This is very common among people who claim rape after regretting a hookup, AFTER the fact and AFTER they gave consent while intoxicated. What do you say to these people?
Also, thank you for your valuable input. You have actually changed my mind about the drunk driving versus rape concept that I used to hold. Fuck 7 and 8 though.
Posted at May 16, 2014, 5:02 am by F
@10
> However, I know plenty of people who don't, who claim that they are absolved from any responsibility because they are drunk, and therefore their consent given while drunk was not actually consent. This is very common among people who claim rape after regretting a hookup, AFTER the fact and AFTER they gave consent while intoxicated. What do you say to these people?
First I would tell them to google the term "affirmative consent".
If they still believe they've been raped, I would tell them to file a police report and take it to court. They'll likely lose the case.
If they say the courts are wrong, then I would tell them to lobby their political authorities to change the laws accordingly. I would remind them that such a change would set a precedent in which the sale of any products/services to intoxicated individuals would effectively be made illegal.
> Also, thank you for your valuable input. You have actually changed my mind about the drunk driving versus rape concept that I used to hold. Fuck 7 and 8 though.
Not a problem, glad I could be of help.
Posted at May 16, 2014, 5:45 pm by M
Sounds like someone's a little hostile there, 10.
Posted at May 16, 2014, 8:38 pm by M
What excuses rape from the back?
Posted at May 20, 2014, 7:53 pm by F
@ 9, 10, 11 +++
I don't think I've ever seen someone make a reasonable argument on this topic on isawyou before, and someone else listen and reconsider their beliefs.
Cheers for reaching out some good sense through the chorus of 7s and 8s on campus. They don't help the cause they speak up for as much as they think they do.
Posted at May 20, 2014, 8:28 pm by F
@10 (or others) I'm honestly curious - do you know the origin of the 'girls cry rape when they regret a drunken hookup' story?
I tend to disbelieve it (because going through the motions of telling the authorities about a rape sounds much more public and unpleasant than the alternative - which is to privately regret my hookup and move on as fast as I can). However, I've never spoken to anyone else in detail and I don't know if other people feel the same.
I should probably add that I've had an experience that I'm now pretty sure counts as sexual assault - I was happy and flirtatious, and I carelessly accepted some overtures from a guy who started flirting back; when he started to get physical I told him it was too fast; he tried to 'get me in the mood' with a series of increasingly forceful caresses and attempts to remove my clothing as I said 'no' more and more clearly.
Most of my girlfriends - at least the flirtatious, gregarious ones - have a similar story.
The important point isn't that I was assaulted - it was unpleasant and scary, but I'm hardly traumatized. The point is that I've never told anyone the honest details because I'm ashamed at how interested I acted in this guy (I was 19, pushing boundaries and a little naive, he was 25) and how foolish I was to end up alone with him. Sure, he should've listened when I said 'no'. I know I'm not 'supposed' to be ashamed because I was the victim - but I am.
I personally can't imagine coming out with an open rape accusation unless I was deadly serious. But - and it's a big but - this guy asked me, annoyed, 'what the hell is wrong with you girls who make like you're all interested then won't do anything about it?'
Maybe I've answered my own question - can the guy (sorry, the statistics say it is males) have said 'hookup' about something the girl calls 'assault' because they both understood the evening completely differently? That's why consent is difficult and important - not everyone has the same expectations, not everyone gives the same signals. A drunken hookup happens with someone whose expectations you don't know yet at a time when your social awareness is at its lowest ebb. Is it any wonder we get it wrong?
Posted at May 20, 2014, 9:40 pm by F
Pretty sure the second paragraph of 9 is conveying the same as 8's post, with the exception of 8's post being much more brash and confrontational than 9's professional manner (excellent post by the way 9)
To all those in the discussion, is it safe to assume a clear, verbal, willing "yes" or "please continue" is the safest option when pursuing action a little more intimate with another? I feel like it would clear things up much better than trying to read "signals" from the other party without taking away from the "moment" or "mood" or whatever.
Posted at May 21, 2014, 10:56 am by M
@15 No, they wouldn't officially file a rape report over the incident because, like 9 said, there's no point because the authorities will reject the case, but they would claim they were sexually assaulted to their friends and social circle, thus unfairly ruining the reputation of the guy.
Posted at May 21, 2014, 3:27 pm by F
@17 That is true, gossiping to friends is much easier than the authorities.
Still, an accusation that's serious enough to wreck a guy's reputation would generate a *lot* more gossip than rumors of a hookup. Now the hookup that the girl supposedly regrets and probably wishes would be completely forgotten will follow both of them everywhere, and his friends will bash her for accusing him. You don't have to think about it too hard to realize that *everyone* loses.
I'm not saying reputations are never ruined by accident, but I just can't imagine a girl putting her unwanted hookup up for public scrutiny deliberately. She'd have to be crazy angry at the guy to do that to herself.
- 15
Posted at May 22, 2014, 1:22 am by M
@10 you should give @7 and @8 the D ;)
Posted at May 23, 2014, 9:32 am by F
Sex is not automatically rape if someone has consented under the influence of alcohol.
That said, I'd advise guys to not have sex with drunk girls. If you can sleep with them sober, wait until then. If you can't sleep with them sober, then their ability to consent has been impaired, so back the fuck off.
Posted at May 23, 2014, 3:43 pm by M
@20 Just because someone agrees to do something while intoxicated does not mean their ability to consent has been impaired. See 9's analogy about drunk purchases.
Posted at May 24, 2014, 2:37 pm by M
@20 There's a difference between taking advantage of a clearly gone girl who can't stand up straight, talk normally, or generate any semblance of coherent thought, and having sex with someone who's had a few drinks and a fuck it let's fuck attitude...who then regrets her decision the next day because turns out the guy wasn't a 7 like she remembered. Alcohol does not absolve the girl's responsibility in the latter case, just like I can't refund the Great American Challenge that I bought while drunk.
Posted at May 25, 2014, 11:21 am by F
Girl acting normal: Wow, what a bitch, she won't sleep with me
Girl acting intoxicated: Well, she's not black out drink and she wants the D, so everything must be fine!
Girl blacks out: Yeah, I guess it's rape at this point.
If a girl's been drinking, you probably can't actually tell whether or not she's impaired. Respect the people around you, stay on the safe side, step up your game and get a sober chick instead of being that pathetic, creepy, possible-rapist guy who needs women drunk to consent.
Posted at May 25, 2014, 1:49 pm by F
^ Nice try, sober chick.
Posted at May 25, 2014, 3:26 pm by F
@23 That's bullshit and you know it. Plenty of girls go out and get drunk and try to hook up with a hot guy, just like guys get drunk and try to hook up with a hot girl. The only difference is that if the guy wakes up the next morning and finds out his partner wasn't as attractive as the night before, he has to man up to his friends' jokes, but if a girl feels the same way, she can badmouth and tarnish the guy's reputation.
Sincerely, a girl who owns up to her drunken hookups
Posted at May 25, 2014, 3:27 pm by M
@23 You must feel that way because the only guys who drunkenly try to hook up with you are ugly dudes.
Posted at May 25, 2014, 9:49 pm by M
It's funny how women want equality but don't take any responsibility for their actions. They're just big children.
"If a girl's been drinking, you probably can't actually tell whether or not she's impaired. Respect the people around you, stay on the safe side..."
Funny that the guy has to take responsibility for the girl who goes to a frat party and gets smashed. I supposed his condition doesn't matter because if he's impaired it's still his responsibility. You fake half baked "feminists" make me laugh.
I'll just leave this here.
http://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/26gh4i/so_i_think_i_was_half_raped_last_night/
Posted at May 26, 2014, 4:01 am by M
@27 wellll in the link you posted, that definitely sounds like rape.
- Guy who agrees with 25, 22, 21, etc
Posted at May 28, 2014, 10:54 am by M
For the record, it depends on the state. In New York, consent while drunk is still consent.